Many people’s idea of engaging with universities and research institutions is to undertake research and development, however this is just one of the ways in which entrepreneurs can tap into the world-class expertise available to them in Scotland.

Yes, applied research is an important aspect of the work of universities and research institutions in engaging with commercial enterprises; often a win-win partnership with each partner learning from the other (which is why it’s often called knowledge exchange).

However, Interface works with universities and research institutes in a number of different ways to match businesses with academic partners to stimulate innovation and strengthen the economy.

Working with a group of students has proved to be inspiring for many companies, who soon discover that fresh thinking can be hugely beneficial to their business.

One company which Interface matched with students studying at the University of Edinburgh is Healthy Nibbles, which supplies the UK’s first dedicated healthy vending machines and subscription snack boxes filled with nutritional super foods.

Two groups of students worked with company founder Sara Roberts to develop a new line of products. They researched the competition, the company’s existing products and market, came up with a product of interest to new customers, produced marketing material and presented their findings to Sara as an agency might pitch for new business.

Sara shared her experience, saying that the students were really professional and took the time to understand her business. She said: 

“In a small business it is great to get an external pair of eyes. The students created the idea of a Chocoholics box, which we implemented. It has been well received by our customers.”

Working with a student has given Emma Currie, founder of Edinburgh-based Acting Up, access to “Generation Y” skills which her business was lacking.

Emma employed a student studying an MSc in Human Resources for a short-term project. However, the student’s skill-set proved so useful she helped with other aspects of the business (which tackles behavioural change in the workplace through film and theatre) and Emma offered her further employment once she graduated. Emma explained:

“I imagined that the company needed someone with more experience, but I realised how differently younger people can think. As well as doing her dissertation, Emmanuelle helped with our newsletter, which we were struggling with technically. She had it sorted within 20 minutes.”

For longer-term involvement with a student, Knowledge Transfer Partnerships (KTPs) can be an excellent way of tapping into university knowledge; and the outcomes can be impressive.

Laura Kreiling, a KTP Associate from the University of Strathclyde, undertook a 24-month project to improve engineering resource estimation at Alexander Dennis Ltd, UK’s leading bus and coach manufacturer.

Among other improvements, she developed a new approach that cut a manual estimation process from up to five days to just 30 minutes, saving the company £166,500 a year.

The collaboration resulted in improved competitiveness, sales growth and profitability with an expected saving of £500,000 in new product development spend over 3 years.

Laura’s contributions were recognised outwith the business too: she won the Building Skills category in the Scottish Knowledge Exchange Awards in February for postgraduate students or Knowledge Transfer Partnership Associates who have worked within a business on a specific project to increase innovation within the company.

Individual businesses in the food and drink industry have discovered that banding together can result in a bigger impact. Interface Food & Drink is involved with a number of Common Interest Groups, such as a reformulation group which aims to make food products healthier. These groups of business work together – despite often being in direct competition – on collaborative projects with academics which they would find difficult to fund individually.

Funding, which is available to companies individually, can also be pooled by groups of businesses like the Common Interest Groups to fund larger collaborative projects.

Businesses that collaborate to access academic expertise will often work with academics again and Interface is well positioned to match these businesses with more than one university.

Marine Biopolymers Ltd worked with Universities of Strathclyde and Edinburgh to develop a new process to manufacture alginate from seaweed – a product used to thicken food such as olive oil spread and ice cream.

In summary, there are endless possibilities in the way in which businesses can engage with universities and research institutions.  Which will you choose in order to create or safeguard jobs, grow your company, reach new markets or increase turnover or profitability?

This article first appeared in the Friends of the Scotsman

A first of its kind programme is being launched today to help Scottish entrepreneurs with potential to scale-up to grow their businesses with world class training from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and Harvard Business School.  

Scotland Can Do SCALE has two strands, an online course which explores putting customers at the heart of a business and a residential summer school. The programme offers something for every entrepreneur in Scotland, with the most promising scale-ups being eligible to attend the summer school delivered by world leading educators in entrepreneurship.  Everyone taking part will be supported by Scotland’s exceptional entrepreneurial ecosystem to develop and grow their business.

Funded and delivered by Highlands and Islands Enterprise, Scottish Enterprise and the Scottish Funding Council, and sitting under the Scotland Can Do government banner, the programme will involve participants following a free online MIT training course called Entrepreneurship 101 – Who is Your Customer?, which is the first step for securing additional support opportunities including qualifying for the summer school.

The online course has been developed by Bill Aulet, Managing Director of the Martin Trust Center for MIT entrepreneurship, and author of 24 Steps to Disciplined Entrepreneurship, who is also a visiting professor in entrepreneurship at Strathclyde University.

The objective of the programme is to build a community of entrepreneurs leading scalable businesses across Scotland, with ongoing support provided to those with ambition and potential for growth.

Luke Johnston, CEO of innovative oil & gas software firm Cognitive Geology, took part in the pilot programme and has achieved great traction since August last year. He said:

“Scotland Can Do SCALE really helped me to step back and shape the future of the business, using Bill Aulet’s 24 steps as a framework. In recent months we have hired two new developers, two geoscientists and are currently recruiting to continue building our team. We have secured £100K in grant funding, been selected for the London Stock Exchange ELITE programme and secured a funded place at the MIT Entrepreneurial Development Program. We’re meeting with some of the world’s largest oil companies this year in Houston and experiencing tremendous growth.”

Michelle Ferguson, managing director of social enterprise St Andrew’s First Aid Training and Supplies, attended the course as part of a team, with colleague Stuart Callison, CEO of the parent charity. She commented:

“The SCALE programme was all I hoped it would be and more. The training was world class and I found the cohort to be supportive and often facing the same challenges I do as we work to scale internationally. We are now much more entrepreneurial and ambitious as a team and have a more planned strategic approach to large scale growth. We are exploring new markets and will shortly be announcing some exciting news regarding a major business deal in the Far East.”

Deputy First Minister John Swinney said:

“This Government has always been focused on helping Scotland become a world leading innovative and entrepreneurial nation – a CAN DO place to do business and never more so than in 2016 – the Year of Innovation, Architecture and Design.

“Scotland CAN DO Scale is here to take our nation’s entrepreneurial ambition to the next level.  This programme offers businessmen and women in Scotland a world-class opportunity to refine their ideas and develop their skillsets by participating in a course designed by an international leader in entrepreneurship.”

To sign up visit the www.cando.scot/scale website and click sign-up today.

Is it just me or is innovation one of those words we bandy about without really giving it much thought?  The government, whether in Edinburgh or Westminster, certainly places a lot of emphasis on the importance of it to our economy and yet the concept isn’t so much misunderstood in the workplace as not understood.
Consequently, individuals may feel “innovation” is someone else’s responsibility and companies sometimes feel that they are too small to innovate – or perhaps that is an easier excuse than trying to work out what it might mean to them. 

I don’t think we can argue that it’s important, so why is it so difficult to understand?  I like Wikipedia’s definition:

Innovation is a new idea, more effective device or process. Innovation can be viewed as the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs, or existing market needs.

If a sales order clerk changes a process to make it more efficient or easier to use, that’s innovation – and should be recognised as such.

In our experience at Interface Food & Drink, innovation is too often narrowly defined as meaning the introduction of new products. Introducing a new flavour of yogurt or type of biscuit is rarely going to be the sort of innovation that will “prove crucial to the continuing success of an organisation”. That definition also excludes many employees from the process, whereas the sales order clerk example is something the entire workforce can understand and contribute to. 

For those companies that do get it and want to innovate, they may not know where to turn to for guidance or for the innovation itself. Did you know that all of Scotland’s universities will engage with both individuals and companies who have ideas they want to take forward? Not only that, it is actually a requirement that, in order to continue to receive public funding, they MUST engage with small to medium sized companies in such a way that will have an identifiable impact – in other words, an exercise that makes the company more viable. That’s an amazing resource, with a scope and scale that would take your breath away. Not only do you – yes you – have access to expertise, but also to facilities.

To try to bring the food industry and academia closer, Interface Food & Drink will be hosting an event in Edinburgh on 28th January which will have 3 themes –

I’ve been very concerned lately with waste, particularly with reference to food – whether it’s over-consumption leading to obesity (if we don’t regard obesity as a waste issue yet, we will soon), over-capacity leading to wasted production or unnecessary purchase leading to discarded food. Some of our most exciting projects recently have involved turning waste from agriculture or food production into something of value which has a further use – innovation we should all be excited about.

Innovation in any of these areas can reduce waste. As you would imagine, resource efficiency is about using less of any of production inputs, such as water, energy and raw materials and process efficiency ensures that as much as possible gets to market.

Testing, analysis and quality control ensures that the market gets what it needs – first time – and that outputs are not wasted or of less value than planned.

I hope this event will trigger a few things but mostly a better understanding of the wider meaning of innovation and how it can apply to everyone within an organisation. Every organisation, whatever size, can benefit from adopting innovation and can appreciate the sort of help and inspiration available from Scotland’s universities.

Two great examples of food producers and academics working together are the recent winners of the Interface Food & Drink Common Interest Group Competition.

The Farm Waste Utilisation Group comprises farms across Scotland and academics from four Scottish universities. Their project will explore converting farm waste such as manure into clean gases and liquid fuels through a gasification process, giving economic and environmental benefits to farms.

The second is a syndicate of soft fruit growers investigating producing alcohol from second grade fruit using sugar-rich by-products from tablet production, as well as turning food waste into fuel, fertiliser and chemicals. Working with a craft distillery and a confectionery manufacturer, this group will be collaborating with academics from three Edinburgh-based universities.

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing the results of both projects.

Interface is a proud supporter of the Year of Innovation, Architecture and Design, launched this month by VisitScotland with a celebration of the iconic Mackintosh coat, invented by Scottish chemist Charles Macintosh in 1823. Throughout 2016 we plan to celebrate the impacts that Scottish scientists, such as Macintosh, have had on the world.

From the well-known inventors and innovators of Scotland’s past; Alexander Graham Bell, James Watt, Alexander Fleming; to those lesser known greats that are currently working with academia to build on their achievements; Interface will be highlighting the huge opportunities that are available through Scotland’s world class universities and research institutions.

Added to this, and to complement VisitScotland’s existing programme of events, Interface is planning a series of regional events to ensure that organisations across Scotland can capitalise on the expertise, technologies and facilities that are available when working alongside Scotland’s diverse research base.

Central to these are the Scottish Knowledge Exchange Awards, Scotland’s first award event that will showcase the opportunities and celebrate the outcomes of working with academia.

To ensure that innovation is at the core of all activity throughout the year, Interface is working with VisitScotland encouraging academic teams from Higher and Further Education to create an innovative digital resource that will be at the heart of Scotland’s marketing during 2016.

Innovation can be a complicated business – that is why Interface has been making it easier for businesses and organisations to tap into funding for working with Scotland’s world-class academic expertise.

Knowing where to start, who to speak to and who does what can be daunting, especially for first-time collaborations.

Interface connects small to medium-sized businesses to academic expertise through its network of highly knowledgeable business executives located throughout Scotland. Interface offers support to SMEs taking the first tentative steps into working with universities to develop innovative solutions to business challenges.

Through the Scottish Funding Council, Interface processes hundreds of applications for Innovation Vouchers each year – each one up to £5,000 for a businesses, partnering  with a university, colleges or research institution, to develop products, services or processes. In fact, over 950 Innovation Vouchers have been issued since the scheme was launched in 2009, amounting to over £4.5m.

Siobhán Jordan, Director of Interface, said: “We have seen all kinds of ideas being tested, technology developed, exciting new product launches and moves into international markets as a result of businesses willing to give working with universities a go. Often, we find that businesses who work with academics for the first time through an Innovation Voucher establish long lasting links and go on to work on other projects with the same or other universities. It really is the start of a journey for many.”

Bright Red Publishing is a multi-award winning independent publishing company which develops and produces high quality Study Guides for the new National 4, National 5, Curriculum for Excellence Higher and Advanced Higher qualifications. They collaborated with Edinburgh Napier University to create a unique on-line Digital Zone to further support students and teachers during a time of immense educational change in Scotland.

The company, wanting to produce the very best resources for Scottish students, was looking to support their publishing plans with on-line support across a number of subjects. Although the company had the expertise to create and tailor the very best possible content, they did not have the experience to develop the digital strategy required to fully capitalise on the work they had done. 

Bright Red Publishing approached Business Gateway, who referred them on to Interface. After working with Bright Red to develop their initial brief, Interface put out an enquiry, searching through all of Scotland’s universities to find the right expertise.  Reviewing the resulting proposals from the universities, Bright Red felt that Edinburgh Napier University had the extensive expertise and support to get their digital project off the ground.  The collaboration was supported by a £5,000 Innovation Voucher.

Building on the success of their original collaboration, Bright Red Publishing and Edinburgh Napier University applied for, and received a Follow-On Innovation Voucher for £20k, which the company matched in cash. This allowed the success of the first project to be broadened out to include a wider range of subjects, creating innovative web-based materials to reinforce textbook learning.

Since The Digital Zone went live almost two years ago, more than 25,000 Scottish students have registered and feedback from both students and teachers has been excellent.

In recent months Interface has been working to ensure that applying for Innovation Vouchers is easier, starting with the application form itself. A step-by step guide for applying for the funding has been created, including a flowchart showing the processes and timescales involved.

A frequently asked questions section has been introduced to ensure that businesses and organisations know what to expect from them and their academic partners, and to understand the timescales involved – both of the application process and the project itself.

Siobhán Jordan added: “Managing expectations is extremely important and can be key to satisfaction levels at a project’s conclusion. Feedback from the business community tells us that different expectations can exist on timescales and the scope of work to be undertaken, so we hope that by having clear information online, people will establish partnerships with a better understanding of timescales and deliverables from the outset.

“We hope that in “keeping things simple” many more businesses will include tapping into the world leading Scottish academic expertise in their strategy. Who knows where it might lead?”

Businesses of all shapes and sizes are discovering the benefits of working with students from Scottish universities through tie-ups which bring fresh thinking to tackle workplace challenges. 

And it appears that it’s a win-win situation as almost 60% of the students go onto employment or secure additional work with those companies.

Lack of resource or money often means that an idea stays an idea, even if it hinders business growth.

But thanks to a number of initiatives linking businesses with universities, working with Scotland’s top-class graduates and students from a diverse range of disciplines is bringing new skills into the workplace.

For companies that have been established for a year or longer, University of Edinburgh’s Enterprise Consultancy Project could provide a good solution.

An individual or team of undergraduate students studying entrepreneurship undertake an 8-week project, for free, which addresses a particular business hurdle. Market research, identifying new customers or suppliers, analysing the impact of new legislation or regulations, or business planning can all be carried out for the business.

One business to benefit from this initiative is Acting Up, an Edinburgh-based company set up in 1997 by actress and writer Emma Currie to tackle behavioural change in the workplace, particularly among hard-hat wearing employees, through film and theatre.

Emma took on Emmanuelle Sangster, a business student at Edinburgh University doing an  MSc in human Resources for a short-term project. However, her skill-set proved so useful she helped with other aspects of the business and has been offered part-time employment once she graduates this autumn.

Emma explained: “Having Emmanuelle work with us has given my business access to Generation Y skills that I would not otherwise have sought out.  I imagined that the company needed someone with more experience, but I realised how differently younger people can think. As well as doing her dissertation, Emmanuelle has been helping with our newsletter, which we were struggling with technically. She had it sorted within 20 minutes.

“I decided to take Emmanuelle on two days a week once she has graduated. It really was a great way to “try before you buy” for my business.”

Willie Biggart, Chairman of Spoonfed, an online management software application for drop off caterers and restaurants, tells a similar story.

“Chih-wei Chou came to work with us on her dissertation on international marketing for her MBA, looking specifically at the Taiwanese market, which we wanted to explore. She came to the conclusion that it was a market for Spoonfed and identified other markets too.”

Chih-wei went on to complete a 12-week project with Spoonfed handling international enquiries, and is now the permanent International Business Development Manager.

“Doing this allows us to work with potential employees, for them to get a good feel for us, and us for them.

“It’s also an opportunity to invest in people and we realised that we needed to have the resource to handle proper development. It’s a win-win situation,” Willie added.

Livingston-based start-up Cobra Simulation makes hardware and software technology for training. It has benefited from the input of two student teams – and filled a key senior position as a result of a collaboration with engineering students.

Managing Director, Alexander Bradley, said: “We were allocated four students to develop a solution which they produced over six months. Their creative input was a huge bonus. We were recruiting for a technical sales executive at the time and out of the relationship with the  university we found someone who started with us recently.”

A second project with MBA students brought experienced professionals to the table from established businesses, and prompted Alexander and his team to reposition the company.

“They pulled the business apart – in a positive way – and understood our challenges, and that led to an expanded team, a newly structured website, new business and a completely different outlook for us.

“The students helped me to adapt as a business owner who really did everything, from being a designer to attending events. They brought fresh brains and thinking to our business when I was stuck in a rut. It’s been invaluable and had a big impact.”

Santander bank recognised that small businesses are key to economic recovery – and contribute significantly to UK employment. The Santander Universities SME Internships programme has proved hugely successful, linking 4,000 final year undergraduates and recent graduates to businesses for fixed-term projects lasting 3-6 months. The business and Santander contribute financially to enable the internship to go ahead.

“It’s a mutually beneficial partnership, with graduates gaining invaluable experience in the workplace, and SMEs accessing talented and ambitious graduates,” explained Simon Bray, Managing Director, Santander Universities UK.

Edinburgh University has placed over 100 students in the last two years with SMEs through the Santander scheme – last year half of the internships led to full or part-time roles or extensions to their original internship.  

The University’s Internships Manager, Jennifer Dixon, said: “We tend to work with a number of start-up and high potential growth organisations in the Edinburgh area and really enjoy developing relationships with theses SMEs.

“The SMEs seem to really benefit from the simplicity of the Santander process and engaging and working with our final year students and recent graduates.  

“It is a great opportunity for students and graduates to experience working for an SME and gaining an understanding of the benefits and drawbacks of this sector.  However, we do find the majority of students and graduates love the dynamic, flexible environment where they can gain a multitude of experience and responsibility in a very short time, compared to working for a large organisation.  We also find SMEs are more interested in the students’ attributes and work ethic than necessarily the perfect skill set which provides opportunities for our students and graduates to gain meaningful work experience.”

Louise Arnold is a Business Engagement Executive at Interface, a free service which matches businesses to academic expertise. She has been spearheading Interface’s drive to connect SMEs with students through a number of initiatives.

“There are great opportunities for businesses to gain additional support, at low cost, or co-funded which could make the difference between hiring an intern or not.

“The feedback we get from both businesses and universities is very positive with the businesses often delighted at the progress made and discovering additional benefits of  working with students.

“I would encourage any business to have an initial conversation about the other opportunities of working with universities and discuss what could benefit their business. Working with students often opens the door to more businesses-academic partnerships.

“We know from our research that a lack of time or resource can prevent businesses from developing products and services and moving their business forward, so this could be a solution they may not have considered.”

Deadlines for some of the initiatives mentioned above are in August, with projects starting in September, whilst others are open all year round.

More information about University of Edinburgh’s involvement in the Santander Universities SME Internship scheme can be found at http://www.ed.ac.uk/schools-departments/careers/looking-for-work/interns…

To discuss all opportunities for business working with students please contact Interface interface-online.org.uk Tel. 0845 013 0536. 

New legal templates to streamline the process of businesses working with universities are to be rolled out across Scotland.

Scotland’s 19 universities have agreed to use the new legal documents, which have been developed by Universities Scotland and Interface, for projects funded through the Scottish Funding Council’s Innovation Vouchers Scheme.

They provide a simple solution for business and university partners to agree legal terms and to clarify the ownership of Intellectual Assets at the outset thereby strengthening working relationships and building trust.

Following approval by all Scottish Universities, the new templates are now available on Interface’s website. The Scottish Funding Council has agreed that these will be adopted as terms and conditions of being awarded a standard Innovation Voucher. A standard Innovation Voucher offers up to £5,000 for a first-time collaboration between businesses and universities, and is matched by the business in cash or kind.

Interface Director, Siobhán Jordan, said: “We are delighted to introduce these standard legal templates, which will not only save time for everyone involved, but will address concerns about sharing and developing ideas. In collaborations between businesses and academics, Intellectual Assets are fundamentally important and these standard templates will introduce much needed clarity for businesses partnering with academia. Each collaboration generates Intellectual Assets and all partners should be clear from the outset about who owns the Intellectual Property and how it will be commercialised.  

“We hope that the harmonisation and simplification by Scottish universities will encourage more small-to-medium-sized businesses to think about how they could tap into the rich seam of academic expertise on offer in Scotland.”

Alastair Sim, Director of Universities Scotland, said: “Scotland’s universities work with 19,000 Scottish businesses every year, helping to develop new ideas for products or processes. We’re keen to grow that number and make it easier than ever for business to innovate with us. Issues around ownership of intellectual property kept on coming up in conversation with business as a potential sticking point so we’ve acted on their feedback and have sought to address these concerns through a new streamlined set of new legal templates. We’d encourage any business with an innovative idea to think of universities as a partner in making it happen. Interface is the place to start.”

Melfort Campbell, Chair Innovation Scotland forum, added: “There are many advantages for companies collaborating with our world-class universities and research institutes and we hope that a one-size-fits-all legal template for projects funded through Innovation Vouchers will make it easier and give peace of mind to companies as they enter collaborations.” 

New legal templates to streamline the process of businesses working with universities are to be rolled out across Scotland.

Scotland’s 19 universities have agreed to use the new legal documents, which have been developed by Universities Scotland and Interface, for projects funded through the Scottish Funding Council’s Innovation Vouchers Scheme.

They provide a simple solution for business and university partners to agree legal terms and to clarify the ownership of Intellectual Assets at the outset thereby strengthening working relationships and building trust.

Following approval by all Scottish Universities, the new templates are now available on Interface’s website.  The Scottish Funding Council has agreed that these will be adopted as terms and conditions of being awarded a standard Innovation Voucher. A standard Innovation Voucher offers up to £5,000 for a first-time collaboration between businesses and universities, and is matched by the business in cash or kind.

Interface Director, Siobhán Jordan, said:

“We are delighted to introduce these standard  legal templates, which will not only save time for everyone involved, but will address concerns about sharing and developing ideas. In collaborations between businesses and academics, Intellectual Assets are fundamentally important and these standard templates will introduce much needed clarity for businesses partnering with academia. Each collaboration generates Intellectual Assets and all partners should be clear from the outset about who owns the Intellectual Property and how it will be commercialised. 

“We hope that the harmonisation and simplification by Scottish Universities will encourage more small-to-medium-sized businesses to think about how they could tap into the rich seam of academic expertise on offer in Scotland.”

Alastair Sim, Director of Universities Scotland, said:

“Scotland’s universities work with 19,000 Scottish businesses every year, helping to develop new ideas for products or processes. We’re keen to grow that number and make it easier than ever for business to innovate with us. Issues around ownership of intellectual property kept on coming up in conversation with business as a potential sticking point so we’ve acted on their feedback and have sought to address these concerns through a new streamlined set of new legal templates. We’d encourage any business with an innovative idea to think of universities as a partner in making it happen. Interface is the place to start.”

Melfort Campbell, Chair Innovation Scotland forum, added:

“There are many advantages for companies collaborating with our world-class universities and research institutes and we hope that a one-size-fits-all legal template for projects funded through Innovation Vouchers will make it easier and give peace of mind to companies as they enter collaborations.”

Scotland’s universities have a wealth of expertise that can help companies with new product processes and development. However, it is not just expertise and know-how services that companies can engage with and access, there is also a vast range of equipment and technologies which can support industry.

Facilities and equipment to test, create & develop new ideas

Hundreds of pieces of equipment and cutting edge facilities are used every day for scientific research throughout Scotland and are widely available for commercial use for testing, creating and developing new ideas.

From 3D printers for prototyping, to environmental test equipment such as wave simulators and environmental chambers; sensory suites to gain consumer feedback, and tools for materials analysis, Scotland’s universities are a rich resource for company support.

Using university equipment is a cost effective solution, saving company expense from in-house purchases and staff training for advanced top of the range equipment that may only be required for short term project specific use.

Technologies to fast track your research & development

Research carried out in our universities leads to innovations that can improve our everyday lives and these technologies are available for companies to develop into new commercial products and services. Working with academics who are experts in their field can provide a company with a more efficient product development process leading to new product lines, new services and faster lead time to market.

Dermofit is a great example of this academic to industry technology transfer process. The University of Edinburgh created a digital training tool utilising an extensive image library of skin lesions and growths. This technology was then licensed to a digital healthcare company and is now being developed as a training app for medical professionals to help improve early skin cancer diagnosis. 

To ensure your products are underpinned by market and scientific research contact Interface who can help to locate the equipment, innovations and expertise no matter what industry you are from or what product you are developing.